{"id":18987,"date":"2024-12-27T18:33:11","date_gmt":"2024-12-27T18:33:11","guid":{"rendered":"\/?p=18987"},"modified":"2024-12-27T19:18:40","modified_gmt":"2024-12-27T19:18:40","slug":"add-dna-from-my-4th-great-grandmother-to-ancestry","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"\/?p=18987","title":{"rendered":"Global Open DNA Genealogy, Full Genome Reference Individuals, Public Notice"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong>Global Open DNA Genealogy, Full Genome Reference Individuals, Public Notice<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>CeCe Moore would understand.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-2\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"user\" data-message-id=\"aaa27c3d-43ff-49c4-b53c-4f25dfa74215\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden items-end rtl:items-start\">\n<div class=\"relative max-w-[var(--user-chat-width,70%)] rounded-3xl bg-token-message-surface px-5 py-2.5\">\n<div class=\"whitespace-pre-wrap\">\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><strong>Richard Collins:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<p>I wanted to ask how to add DNA from my 4th great grandmother to Ancestry. It is technically possible &#8211; DNA is DNA, and a one way comparison back to her is half the distance from a living person to her and back to living matches. The chips accept it. And dna gathering is possible. What is missing is will to share deeper DNA. Not one size fits all. CeCe Moore would understand, but it is ordinary people who need it for deep brick walls &#8211; without going to full genome, yet.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"absolute bottom-0 right-full top-0 -mr-3.5 hidden pr-5 pt-1 [.group\\\/conversation-turn:hover_&amp;]:block\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-3\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"flex-shrink-0 flex flex-col relative items-end\">\n<div>\n<div class=\"pt-0\">\n<div class=\"gizmo-bot-avatar flex h-8 w-8 items-center justify-center overflow-hidden rounded-full\">\n<div class=\"relative p-1 rounded-sm flex items-center justify-center bg-token-main-surface-primary text-token-text-primary h-8 w-8\">\n<p><strong><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">OpenAI ChatGPT Plus:\u00a0<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1\">\n<div class=\"flex items-center justify-start gap-1\">Thought about sharing ancestral DNA for 13 seconds<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"7e467725-f044-4aa4-862d-eb26675f53a8\" data-message-model-slug=\"o1\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light\">\n<p>Strictly speaking, there is currently no straightforward way to \u201cupload\u201d or \u201cadd\u201d the actual DNA data of a deceased ancestor (such as a 4th great-grandmother) to Ancestry or similar consumer-DNA services\u2014because those sites rely on direct testing of living individuals. Below is an outline of why it\u2019s not done, plus some possible workarounds or partial solutions.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>1. The Main Challenge: Testing Historical Remains<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Standard consumer DNA tests require fresh saliva or cheek swabs<\/strong> from a living person.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Testing the DNA of a long-deceased ancestor<\/strong> (hair samples, bone, teeth, etc.) requires specialized laboratory facilities (akin to ancient DNA projects or forensic labs).<\/li>\n<li><strong>AncestryDNA, 23andMe, MyHeritage, etc. are not set up<\/strong> to process historical remains or ancient DNA. They only accept samples in the specialized tubes they provide and process them on their proprietary chips.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>So while it might be <em>technically<\/em> possible for a specialized lab to extract and sequence your 4th great-grandmother\u2019s DNA (if suitable remains were found and ethically\/legal obtained), there is <strong>no direct channel to add such results<\/strong> into the standard consumer databases.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>2. Partial Workaround: Reconstructing Ancestor DNA Through Descendants<\/h2>\n<p>Even though you can\u2019t directly upload your 4th great-grandmother\u2019s DNA, you can attempt a <em>partial reconstruction<\/em> via <strong>living descendants<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h3>How Reconstruction Works<\/h3>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Test Multiple Living Relatives<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Test as many people descended from that same ancestor as possible (siblings, cousins, second cousins, etc.).<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Compare Shared Segments<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Each test-taker inherits some segments from the common ancestor.<\/li>\n<li>By overlapping these segments, you can <em>triangulate<\/em> the pieces that likely came from the 4th great-grandmother.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Approximate an Ancestor\u2019s Genome<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>With enough samples from different lines (and the right statistical approaches), genealogical researchers can piece together an increasingly better approximation of that ancestor\u2019s DNA.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>This sort of \u201cgenetic quilt\u201d approach is used by advanced genealogists and sometimes by forensic specialists. It is not a button-click feature on Ancestry itself, but <em>you<\/em> can do the analysis offline or with third-party tools (e.g., GEDmatch, DNAGedcom, specialized software) and keep track of which segments seem to come from that ancestor.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>3. Why We Can\u2019t Just Do a \u201cSingle\u201d Upload<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>No Standard File Format for Ancestry<\/strong>: They don\u2019t allow random raw data uploads; they only process results from their own tests.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Hardware\/Software Lock-In<\/strong>: Ancestry uses a specific chip technology and pipeline. Even if you had a <em>theoretical<\/em> DNA data file from your 4th great-grandmother, Ancestry wouldn\u2019t simply accept it.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Legal, Ethical, and Privacy Issues<\/strong>: Exhuming and testing remains is complicated. Even if you have the will and means, local laws and ethical considerations may forbid or complicate it.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>4. Paths Forward (If You\u2019re Determined)<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Seek a Specialized Lab<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>In very rare and well-funded cases (e.g., famous historical figures, high-profile forensic cases), specialized labs can process old remains. This is not generally accessible or cost-effective for ordinary genealogical research.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Triangulate Through Cousins<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>As mentioned, test every close (and even distant) relative from that line. This is the most common and recommended route in today\u2019s genealogical DNA community.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Keep an Eye on Future Technologies<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>As genome sequencing becomes cheaper, and genealogical tools advance, there may be new ways to handle partial or ancient DNA. Right now, mainstream consumer genealogy doesn\u2019t offer a direct path.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>5. Conclusion<\/h2>\n<p><strong>You cannot directly add your 4th great-grandmother\u2019s DNA to Ancestry<\/strong> because:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Ancestry only processes living test-takers\u2019 saliva.<\/li>\n<li>Uploading raw data from a deceased individual (even if you could obtain it) isn\u2019t allowed.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>The <em>practical<\/em> and most common workaround is <strong>collecting and triangulating as many living descendants\u2019 autosomal DNA<\/strong> as possible, to piece together the segments she passed down. People like CeCe Moore and other genetic genealogists employ exactly these techniques to break down \u201cbrick walls\u201d without needing the full genome of a long-deceased ancestor.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h3>Quick Tip<\/h3>\n<p>If you haven\u2019t already, explore using GEDmatch or similar tools\u2014there you can compare DNA kits from multiple family members, run segment analysis, and see how the shared segments line up. Over time, with enough relatives tested, you can approximate more and more of that 4th great-grandmother\u2019s DNA \u201cfootprint.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><strong>Richard Collins:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-4\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"user\" data-message-id=\"aaa25551-d76b-4e54-a9f4-c790af3abd51\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden items-end rtl:items-start\">\n<div class=\"relative max-w-[var(--user-chat-width,70%)] rounded-3xl bg-token-message-surface px-5 py-2.5\">\n<div class=\"whitespace-pre-wrap\">No I checked the chips they use can operate with any DNA . The method would use what is often termed &#8220;forensic DNA&#8221; which is just prepared from tissue and sources of DNA like any human remains. Human remains are routinely identified. And the chips would simply treat it like any other DNA. What is missing is a will to try.<\/div>\n<div class=\"absolute bottom-0 right-full top-0 -mr-3.5 hidden pr-5 pt-1 [.group\\\/conversation-turn:hover_&amp;]:block\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-5\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<h5 class=\"sr-only\"><strong><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">OpenAI ChatGPT Plus:\u00a0<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1\">\n<div class=\"flex items-center justify-start gap-1\">Thought about adding forensic DNA to ancestry for 8 seconds<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"7bb4d813-1a67-4a30-8374-eef8e95e3f9f\" data-message-model-slug=\"o1\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light\">\n<p>Indeed, from a purely <em>technical<\/em> standpoint, consumer genotyping chips (e.g., Illumina arrays) <strong>can<\/strong> process DNA extracted from virtually any source\u2014fresh swabs, cheek scrapings, blood, bone, hair, or other forensic\/historical materials. The underlying chemistry does not categorically prevent using \u201cforensic DNA\u201d or ancient DNA on the same array.<\/p>\n<p>However, there are <strong>major real-world roadblocks<\/strong> before someone can just \u201csubmit\u201d a 4th great-grandmother\u2019s remains to Ancestry (or any consumer DNA company):<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>1. Specialized Extraction and Prep<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Recovering DNA from old remains<\/strong>\u2014especially ones that are several generations old\u2014usually requires <em>specialized<\/em> techniques (similar to forensic casework or ancient DNA labs).<\/li>\n<li><strong>Consumer test kits<\/strong> assume relatively \u201cfresh\u201d samples of known quantity. Forensic samples often contain degraded DNA, bacterial contamination, or extremely low yields that need extra steps to amplify and purify.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>Practical Outcome<\/h3>\n<p>Even though an Illumina (or similar) chip <em>could<\/em> genotype that DNA, <em>most consumer labs<\/em> are not set up or certified to handle forensic\/historical extraction. Specialized forensic\/ancient-DNA labs <strong>are<\/strong> set up for that, but then you\u2019d still need a way to feed the resulting DNA into Ancestry\u2019s pipeline.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>2. Acceptance Policies of Consumer DNA Companies<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage, etc.<\/strong> have <em>strict internal policies<\/em> requiring saliva samples collected in their proprietary kits.<\/li>\n<li>Even if you had a perfect sample from your 4th great-grandmother\u2014extracted, purified, and ready to run on the array\u2014<strong>Ancestry (and others) do not have a direct upload option<\/strong> for outside raw data. They only process the tubes mailed back in their kit.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>Practical Outcome<\/h3>\n<p>It\u2019s not a matter of \u201cthe chip can\u2019t do it\u201d\u2014it\u2019s that these companies have built business processes, legal disclaimers, and data-handling protocols around living donors <em>only<\/em>. They have <strong>no commercial incentive<\/strong> (currently) to accept \u201chistorical\u201d or \u201cforensic\u201d DNA.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>3. Legal, Ethical, and Chain-of-Custody Concerns<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Human remains<\/strong> testing typically falls under a separate set of laws\/regulations (often more stringent), because it may involve exhumation or analyzing remains without that person\u2019s direct consent.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Chain-of-custody<\/strong> is another big issue: If the remains were to be tested, labs typically must document exactly how they were obtained, transported, stored, and tested.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>Practical Outcome<\/h3>\n<p>Even with a <em>will to try<\/em>, you\u2019d still face multiple hurdles regarding ownership, permission, local laws, and genealogical ethics. This makes it simpler for consumer DNA companies to say, \u201cWe only handle living donors\u2019 saliva.\u201d<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>4. Possible (But Non-Trivial) \u201cWorkarounds\u201d<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Independent Forensic\/Ancient-DNA Lab + Raw File<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>In principle, you could hire (at great expense) a specialized lab to extract DNA from your ancestor\u2019s remains and run it on the same chip.<\/li>\n<li>You\u2019d receive a raw data file (often a text or .vcf output listing SNP calls).<\/li>\n<li><strong>But<\/strong>: Ancestry (and most consumer companies) <em>will not allow you to upload or import that file<\/em>.<\/li>\n<li>You <em>could<\/em> potentially upload that raw file to a database like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.gedmatch.com\" target=\"_new\" rel=\"noopener\">GEDmatch<\/a>, which <em>does<\/em> allow raw DNA uploads from multiple sources\u2014but there\u2019s no guarantee every format is accepted, and you\u2019d still face data quality issues from degraded DNA.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Reconstructed DNA from Descendants<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>As mentioned in other discussions, genealogists sometimes \u201creverse engineer\u201d an ancestor\u2019s genome by collecting and overlapping segment data from many living cousins.<\/li>\n<li>This does <em>not<\/em> yield a perfect 1:1 genome for the ancestor, but it can help identify which blocks of DNA likely came from her.<\/li>\n<li>All of that can be done today <em>within<\/em> consumer databases (by comparing living test-takers) without needing the actual remains.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>5. Conclusion: The \u201cWill to Try\u201d Is the Missing Ingredient<\/h2>\n<p>You\u2019re absolutely correct that <strong>the chip technology itself<\/strong> can genotype any properly extracted and prepped human DNA, including that from a 4th great-grandmother\u2019s remains. What\u2019s <strong>lacking<\/strong> is:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>A standard path<\/strong> (lab + chain of custody + data upload) to do it.<\/li>\n<li><strong>A willingness from consumer testing companies<\/strong> to handle it\u2014there\u2019s no established policy or pipeline.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Legal\/ethical frameworks<\/strong> that complicate exhumation and forensic-level testing for routine genealogy.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p>So yes\u2014\u201cwhat is missing is will to share deeper DNA.\u201d Today, the big consumer DNA companies focus on living test-takers and do not support historical or forensic samples. In the future, if enough demand, legal clarity, and commercial interest converge, that <em>could<\/em> change. But for now, these practical and policy barriers overshadow the purely technical feasibility.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"text-token-text-error border-token-surface-error\/15 bg-token-surface-error flex w-full items-start gap-3 rounded-2xl border text-sm bg-opacity-5 px-3 py-2.5 md:p-4\">\n<div class=\"grow pt-[2px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert\">\n<p>A network error occurred. Please check your connection and try again. If this issue persists please contact us through our help center at <a href=\"https:\/\/help.openai.com\/\" target=\"_new\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">help.openai.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><strong>Richard Collins:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-6\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"user\" data-message-id=\"aaa28172-dbdf-4566-824e-350cbc2bdb85\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden items-end rtl:items-start\">\n<div class=\"relative max-w-[var(--user-chat-width,70%)] rounded-3xl bg-token-message-surface px-5 py-2.5\">\n<div class=\"whitespace-pre-wrap\">I would say that these public sites have a duty to society to process and post &#8220;unidentified remains&#8221; just as any citizens and businesses are require to post notices and make good faither efforts to help. Putting notices in the newspaper is a shotgun approach not likely to find the people related. But posting it through legal guardians of the DNA with proper controls and procedures &#8211; it is also possible as a social policy. Suppose a group like Mayflower wanted to sponsor key individuals to be absolute reference DNA for large groups. It has social value, it has potential to certify the DNA reaching up from the bottom and certify DNA comparisons that are impossible to verify by comparing living people.<\/div>\n<div class=\"absolute bottom-0 right-full top-0 -mr-3.5 hidden pr-5 pt-1 [.group\\\/conversation-turn:hover_&amp;]:block\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-7\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<h5 class=\"sr-only\"><strong><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">OpenAI ChatGPT Plus:\u00a0<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1\">\n<div class=\"flex items-center justify-start gap-1\">Thought about public DNA as social policy for a couple of seconds<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"6bceea11-3abe-489b-828b-b4c679607bf5\" data-message-model-slug=\"o1\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light\">\n<p>Below is an overview of the considerations around using consumer DNA sites as a tool for identifying historical or forensic remains\u2014whether for social good (e.g., unidentified remains) or genealogical reference (e.g., definitive Mayflower lines). Although the <em>technology<\/em> can enable it, in practice, we face hurdles in <strong>policy<\/strong>, <strong>law<\/strong>, <strong>ethics<\/strong>, and <strong>business priorities<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>1. The Idea of a \u201cDuty to Society\u201d<\/h2>\n<p>You raise the idea that <strong>public-facing DNA companies<\/strong> (e.g., Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage) have a <em>societal duty<\/em> to help identify remains or to add historical references. This suggests:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Public-Interest DNA Databases<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Similar to how we post legal notices in newspapers, an <em>online DNA repository<\/em> of unidentified remains (or historical reference DNA) could connect with living relatives or genealogical matches.<\/li>\n<li><em>Social Benefit<\/em>: Families could get closure, genealogical mysteries could be solved, and important historical lines (like key Mayflower ancestors) could be definitively anchored.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Existing Systems (GEDmatch, Forensic Databases, etc.)<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Some volunteer-driven or forensic databases <em>already<\/em> allow uploading of unidentified remains\u2019 DNA, specifically for law enforcement or genealogical matching.<\/li>\n<li><em>But<\/em>, large consumer platforms <strong>don\u2019t<\/strong> open up that route, typically restricting participation to living test-takers with a standard kit.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<h3>Practical Obstacles<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Consumer Platforms\u2019 Terms of Service<\/strong>: They focus on living individuals consenting to have their own saliva tested.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Privacy and Consent<\/strong>: Deceased individuals (and their estates) may not have a clear framework for granting permission.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Legal Constraints<\/strong>: Many jurisdictions have strict regulations on handling and testing remains, chain-of-custody, data usage, etc.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>2. The \u201cMayflower\u201d Example: Sponsoring Key Reference DNA<\/h2>\n<p>You also propose a scenario where a group (like the Mayflower Society) might sponsor <strong>definitive \u201creference DNA\u201d<\/strong> from historically important ancestors\u2014essentially creating anchor points for genealogical research. In principle, that could:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Enhance Certainty in Lineage<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>If you had a verified sample from a historically documented ancestor, you could anchor genealogies more firmly.<\/li>\n<li>People could test themselves and see if they carry specific segments that match that ancestor.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Foster Large-Scale Collaboration<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Descendants (or prospective descendants) of that ancestor could confirm a genetic link more easily.<\/li>\n<li>Historical and genealogical research would be more robust, reducing reliance on incomplete paper records.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<h3>Practical Obstacles<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Obtaining Suitable Remains<\/strong>: Many of these ancestors have long been buried. Exhumation requires legal permissions, ethical approvals, potentially significant cost, and the remains may not yield enough recoverable DNA.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Policies of Consumer DNA Companies<\/strong>: Even if a specialized lab extracted and prepared the sample, the big platforms currently do not provide an upload or \u201chistorical sample\u201d path.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Who Manages the Sample &amp; Data?<\/strong> A neutral entity would have to store, verify, and regularly maintain the data. This adds complexity beyond the typical direct-to-consumer model.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>3. Paths Forward<\/h2>\n<h3>A. Dedicated Forensic or Historical DNA Databases<\/h3>\n<p>Rather than requiring Ancestry (or others) to incorporate unidentified or historical remains data directly, a <em>specialized site<\/em> or coalition could:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Work with Forensic Labs<\/strong> to extract DNA from remains.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Create a Public Database<\/strong> (like GEDmatch but dedicated to unidentified remains or \u201chistorical reference\u201d profiles).<\/li>\n<li><strong>Provide Matching Tools<\/strong> so individuals who test with <em>any<\/em> consumer service can upload their raw data.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><em>Upside<\/em>: This bypasses the corporate policies of Ancestry or 23andMe\u2014they do not <em>have<\/em> to process that sample. <em>Downside<\/em>: The general public would have to be aware of and actively use this \u201cthird-party\u201d tool.<\/p>\n<h3>B. Public-Private Partnerships<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li>A government or nonprofit entity could partner with one of the big DNA companies, creating a pilot program specifically for unidentified remains or historically significant remains.<\/li>\n<li>This has happened in <em>some<\/em> contexts (e.g., law enforcement partnerships for cold cases), but it\u2019s still controversial due to privacy concerns.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>C. Policy Changes<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li>If the public consensus or legislation demanded that large consumer DNA services provide a minimal feature set for uploading official \u201cunidentified remains\u201d or \u201chistorical reference\u201d DNA (with proper chain-of-custody), that could open the door.<\/li>\n<li>Policy changes typically follow after strong public demand or a major impetus (e.g., new laws or high-profile cases).<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>4. Key Considerations<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Ethical Framework<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Permission\/consent from next-of-kin or relevant authorities is usually required to handle remains.<\/li>\n<li>Even for genealogical\/historical interest, exhumation and DNA extraction can raise serious ethical debates.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Privacy &amp; Data Protection<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Once uploaded, that DNA is in a database that could be used for multiple purposes. This raises concerns about how it might be accessed\u2014by relatives, by law enforcement, by third parties.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Cost and Practicality<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>For consumer DNA companies, there is limited commercial incentive to invest in a robust system for uploading old or unidentified samples.<\/li>\n<li>Large-scale \u201csponsorship\u201d (like your Mayflower example) could offset costs if there\u2019s enough interest and funding.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Accuracy of Ancient\/Degraded DNA<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Even if the chip can run the sample, older or degraded material often requires specialized methods to avoid cross-contamination and to ensure enough coverage.<\/li>\n<li>That can be done, but it\u2019s outside the standard consumer pipeline.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>5. Conclusion<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Yes<\/strong>, from a purely <em>technical<\/em> standpoint, consumer DNA chips can process forensic or ancient DNA.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Yes<\/strong>, there\u2019s a social benefit\u2014identifying remains, confirming historical lineages, and solving genealogical \u201cbrick walls.\u201d<\/li>\n<li><strong>But<\/strong>, the big players (Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage, etc.) are built around a <em>live-consumer, direct-to-lab<\/em> model. They have <em>no established policy<\/em> to handle unidentified remains or historical references.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>A <em>dedicated<\/em> or <em>newly adapted<\/em> system could address this societal gap\u2014perhaps spurred by genealogical societies, nonprofits, or legislative initiatives. For now, though, <strong>the \u201cwill to try\u201d<\/strong> (especially at the policy and business level) remains the main missing ingredient.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><strong>Richard Collins:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-8\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"user\" data-message-id=\"aaa234dc-6930-4a11-8d29-53e68ee64f5b\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden items-end rtl:items-start\">\n<div class=\"relative max-w-[var(--user-chat-width,70%)] rounded-3xl bg-token-message-surface px-5 py-2.5\">\n<div class=\"whitespace-pre-wrap\">A Mayflower society might be acceptable. My own society is effectively more than 400 years old now. The police, courts, agencies FBI now handle unidentified remains. But when the public facing DNA corporations lock out the only realistic way to contact families to bring closure &#8212; that is wrong. It would likely have th positive benefif of moving the DAR, SAR and multitudinous family societys to a firmer and deeper basis. The DNA would be full genome, and the data files can be produced by industry standard conversion. So a full genome test can make an output file of the format compatible with each DNA service company and likely catalyze a global pen DNA format for SNP and other types of test &#8212; tied to full genome references and methods. It is a policy for the next 400 years. No some commercial scheme to make money from DNA.<\/div>\n<div class=\"absolute bottom-0 right-full top-0 -mr-3.5 hidden pr-5 pt-1 [.group\\\/conversation-turn:hover_&amp;]:block\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-9\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<h5 class=\"sr-only\"><strong><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">OpenAI ChatGPT Plus:\u00a0<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1\">\n<div class=\"flex items-center justify-start gap-1\">Thought about DNA policy and ethics for 4 seconds<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"c05c0362-b2d1-421f-be14-346131114ac2\" data-message-model-slug=\"o1\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light\">\n<p>Below is a deeper look at why a \u201cuniversal\u201d or \u201copen\u201d DNA format\u2014tied to fully-sequenced genomes and used for both genealogical\/historical identification <em>and<\/em> unidentified remains\u2014could be a <em>powerful<\/em> social-good initiative. As you note, it\u2019s less about quick commercial gain and more about long-term policy, ethics, and technological standards for the next centuries.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>1. A Vision of Universal \u201cFull Genome\u201d Standards<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>From 700k SNPs to 3+ Billion Bases<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Current consumer tests typically measure ~700,000 to 1,000,000 SNP positions (out of ~3 billion base pairs).<\/li>\n<li>A <em>full-genome<\/em> sequence captures <em>all<\/em> base pairs\u2014far more comprehensive than a genotyping array.<\/li>\n<li><em>Benefit<\/em>: By having the <em>full<\/em> data, you can always \u201csubset\u201d or \u201cconvert\u201d down to whatever format a consumer service currently uses.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Industry-Standard File Formats<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>For <em>full<\/em> genomic data, the most common formats include:\n<ul>\n<li><strong>FASTA<\/strong> (all base calls, though huge files)<\/li>\n<li><strong>BAM<\/strong> or <strong>CRAM<\/strong> (aligned reads)<\/li>\n<li><strong>VCF<\/strong> (variant call format, listing differences from a reference genome)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li>Consumer companies often only want <em>the subset of SNP positions<\/em> they test. A standardized \u201cbridge format\u201d could translate a full VCF into the specific SNP positions a site like Ancestry or 23andMe requires.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Potential for a New \u201cOpen\u201d Ecosystem<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>If genealogical, forensic, and historical archives adopted a shared, \u201copen\u201d standard, then <em>any<\/em> platform (commercial or otherwise) could consume that data.<\/li>\n<li>Over decades or centuries, the raw data remains accessible even if commercial vendors change or go out of business.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>2. Benefits to Genealogical &amp; Historical Societies<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Definitive \u201cReference\u201d Profiles<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Groups like the Mayflower Society, DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution), SAR (Sons of the American Revolution), or other historical societies could sponsor the sequencing of key remains or verified descendants.<\/li>\n<li>Having a <em>reference genome<\/em> for historically significant individuals (where feasible) makes it easier to confirm lineage for thousands\/millions of living descendants.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Stronger Lineage Validation<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Paper records can be incomplete, but if you have a <em>genetic anchor<\/em>, it solidifies genealogical claims.<\/li>\n<li>This reduces disputes, forges consensus, and can solve \u201cbrick walls\u201d in lineage research.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Long-Term Preservation and Global Access<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>A society that\u2019s been around for centuries may consider a <em>400-year strategy<\/em>. Digitally preserving full genomes ensures that future generations, researchers, or historical societies can draw from it\u2014without re-doing expensive new tests each time.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>3. Applications to Unidentified Remains &amp; Law Enforcement<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Connecting Families to the Deceased<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>If a universal or open database existed where unidentified remains could be uploaded (in a controlled, ethical manner), families across the globe could compare their own data.<\/li>\n<li>This far surpasses the effectiveness of posting newspaper notices or other outdated \u201cshotgun\u201d approaches.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Clear Chain of Custody &amp; Consent<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Public or governmental entities\u2014police, FBI, etc.\u2014would handle the remains under strict protocols, but the <em>matching<\/em> process could be open to authorized genealogists and families.<\/li>\n<li>Consent and privacy frameworks would still be critical: <em>Who<\/em> can search or see matches? Under <em>what<\/em> guidelines?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Reduction of Commercial Friction<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Right now, if you have data from unidentified remains, or from a historical figure, you can\u2019t just \u201cupload\u201d it to Ancestry or 23andMe.<\/li>\n<li>A neutral, open repository (akin to GEDmatch\u2014but on a broader scale and with official status) could serve law enforcement, genealogists, or families without requiring direct acceptance by a for-profit DNA provider.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>4. The Real-World Roadblocks<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Business Model Conflicts<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>The big consumer DNA companies have built their pipelines around <em>selling kits and analyzing fresh saliva samples<\/em>.<\/li>\n<li>Accepting data from external sources\u2014<em>especially<\/em> forensic or ancient remains\u2014doesn\u2019t fit neatly into their commercial model.<\/li>\n<li>They also worry about potential privacy issues, legal liability, or negative press (e.g., if law enforcement uses their database in ways customers didn\u2019t expect).<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Privacy &amp; Ethical Concerns<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Uploading someone\u2019s entire genome\u2014especially a deceased individual with many living relatives\u2014can raise privacy alarms for the family line.<\/li>\n<li>Even if it\u2019s for a social good, there must be clear guidelines on how that data is stored, shared, or used by third parties.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Cost and Infrastructure<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Full-genome sequencing is more expensive (though it has been coming down, it still can be $300-$1000 per sample for 30x coverage).<\/li>\n<li>Storing and serving full genomic data on a large scale demands robust infrastructure and long-term funding.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Slow Pace of Policy Development<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Implementing a new \u201cuniversal\u201d standard or a global repository requires buy-in from multiple entities\u2014governments, genealogical societies, corporations, nonprofits.<\/li>\n<li>This can be a lengthy process with competing interests.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>5. Forward-Looking Possibilities<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Global \u201cOpen DNA\u201d Consortium<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Nonprofits, historical societies, law enforcement, and academic institutions could band together.<\/li>\n<li>They\u2019d define standard formats (e.g., a universal SNP set or a minimal VCF spec) and push for acceptance among different platforms.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Funding from Major Institutions<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>If groups like the Mayflower Society or DAR see value in sponsoring reference genome projects, that could fund the creation of well-documented, verified profiles.<\/li>\n<li>Over time, more institutions join, creating a large, credible repository.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Legislative\/Regulatory Pressure<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>If enough public demand arises (e.g., for unidentified remains or genealogical truth in lineage societies), lawmakers could require large DNA companies to provide an \u201copen channel\u201d for certain verified data sets.<\/li>\n<li>That\u2019s an unlikely scenario in the short term but <em>could<\/em> happen if enough momentum builds around the social benefits.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Technological Convergence<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>As full-genome costs continue to drop, more people will have entire-genome data at home or from third-party labs.<\/li>\n<li>The more such data accumulates outside the consumer DNA \u201cwalled gardens,\u201d the more pressure there is to establish shared standards so people can do cross-platform genealogy or remain identification.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>6. Conclusion<\/h2>\n<p>Your vision\u2014an <em>open, full-genome, global DNA reference system<\/em> used by societies, law enforcement, and individuals\u2014<em>is<\/em> technically achievable. The <strong>main challenges<\/strong> are:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Business inertia (consumer DNA companies lock down their pipelines).<\/li>\n<li>Ethical\/legal frameworks for how remains are tested and posted.<\/li>\n<li>Financial feasibility and standardization efforts over the long haul.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>Yet, in the grand scheme of 400-year (or more) institutions, it\u2019s not far-fetched. If genealogical\/historical societies, law enforcement, and nonprofits unite around an \u201copen\u201d approach\u2014and if the public sees the social benefits\u2014this <em>could<\/em> reshape how DNA data is shared, verified, and preserved for generations to come.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\"><strong>Richard Collins:<\/strong><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-10\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\">\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"user\" data-message-id=\"aaa22fdd-92ff-4644-b1ce-bf180efea5d2\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden items-end rtl:items-start\">\n<div class=\"relative max-w-[var(--user-chat-width,70%)] rounded-3xl bg-token-message-surface px-5 py-2.5\">\n<div class=\"whitespace-pre-wrap\">You spend three second on it and have no experience or depth and ou start spouting rules and interpretations as through you are an expert. I have been working on Internet and global policies for many decades and using DNA to solve deep problems and local ones for almost a decade every day. Perhaps you should listen to me and help, not try to be a paper legal expert. A shallow chatbot. I am trying to propose a workable system and you are just dragging up bit and piece of what commercial DNA sales outlets are doing, not what is better or best for human society at a global scale.<\/div>\n<div class=\"absolute bottom-0 right-full top-0 -mr-3.5 hidden pr-5 pt-1 [.group\\\/conversation-turn:hover_&amp;]:block\"><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n<article class=\"w-full scroll-mb-[var(--thread-trailing-height,150px)] text-token-text-primary focus-visible:outline-2 focus-visible:outline-offset-[-4px]\" dir=\"auto\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-11\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\">\n<h5 class=\"sr-only\"><strong><span style=\"color: #0000ff;\">OpenAI ChatGPT Plus:\u00a0<\/span><\/strong><\/h5>\n<div class=\"m-auto text-base py-[18px] px-3 md:px-4 w-full md:px-5 lg:px-4 xl:px-5\">\n<div class=\"mx-auto flex flex-1 gap-4 text-base md:gap-5 lg:gap-6 md:max-w-3xl lg:max-w-[40rem] xl:max-w-[48rem]\">\n<div class=\"group\/conversation-turn relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n<div class=\"flex-col gap-1 md:gap-3\">\n<div class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col flex-grow\">\n<div class=\"group absolute left-0 top-0 mr-1.5 h-8 overflow-hidden mt-1\">\n<div class=\"flex items-center justify-start gap-1\">Thought about open DNA systems for 6 seconds<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"min-h-8 text-message flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 whitespace-normal break-words text-start [.text-message+&amp;]:mt-5\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"c8a6774f-423b-44c4-9516-9905c1bbbbc3\" data-message-model-slug=\"o1\">\n<div class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[3px]\">\n<div class=\"markdown prose w-full break-words dark:prose-invert light\">\n<p>Below is a more proactive outline of how one <strong>could<\/strong> build a workable, globally oriented system for DNA data\u2014<em>not<\/em> just rehashing commercial norms, but rather focusing on a <em>policy-driven<\/em>, <em>technically feasible<\/em>, and <em>socially beneficial<\/em> framework. I&#8217;ll do my best to highlight <em>structural steps<\/em> for implementation, rather than dwelling on existing corporate practices.<\/p>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>1. Define the Core Purpose &amp; Goals<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Primary Purpose<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Provide a <em>universal DNA reference system<\/em> to address unidentified remains, historical lineages, genealogical \u201cbrick walls,\u201d and other deep-seated societal needs.<\/li>\n<li>Move beyond the \u201cshort-term commercial kit\u201d model to a <em>long-term<\/em> (multi-century) approach.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>High-Level Goals<\/strong>\n<ol>\n<li><em>Global Access &amp; Standardization<\/em>: Data formats, protocols, and archiving that transcend any single corporation or country.<\/li>\n<li><em>Ethical &amp; Respectful Use<\/em>: Minimizing privacy risks, obtaining community buy-in, and respecting the deceased and their living descendants.<\/li>\n<li><em>Scalable &amp; Evolvable Over Centuries<\/em>: Future-proofing data structures, anticipating changes in technology and scientific knowledge.<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Key Insight<\/strong>: Start with a <em>charter<\/em> or <em>mission statement<\/em> that can rally stakeholders\u2014governments, genealogical\/historical societies, law enforcement, academic institutions, and the general public.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>2. Establish a Governing Body or Consortium<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Neutral International Organization<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>For the Internet, organizations like the IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force) or ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers) emerged to coordinate protocols.<\/li>\n<li>Similarly, for a <em>global DNA reference system<\/em>, a consortium (perhaps akin to UNESCO, or a new body) could set <em>policy standards<\/em> and <em>technical specs<\/em>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Stakeholder Representation<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Genealogical &amp; Historical Societies<\/strong> (Mayflower, DAR, SAR, other centuries-old institutions)<\/li>\n<li><strong>Law Enforcement &amp; Forensic Entities<\/strong> (for unidentified remains)<\/li>\n<li><strong>Academic Researchers<\/strong> (genomics, anthropology, archaeology)<\/li>\n<li><strong>Governments<\/strong> (for policy and funding)<\/li>\n<li><strong>Technology Standards Experts<\/strong> (to ensure open data formats and robust infrastructure)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Funding &amp; Accountability<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>A sustained funding model (grants, endowments, philanthropic contributions, membership fees, or government allocations) so it doesn\u2019t hinge on short-term profits.<\/li>\n<li>Periodic reviews, public transparency, and open decision-making processes (similar to how the IETF publishes RFCs).<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Key Insight<\/strong>: Create an entity that\u2019s <em>not<\/em> beholden to short-term commercial interests, so it can prioritize humanity\u2019s long-term needs for DNA data.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>3. Develop the Technical Architecture<\/h2>\n<p>Below is a high-level technical blueprint:<\/p>\n<h3>3.1 Full-Genome (or High-Coverage) Sequencing as a Baseline<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Reason<\/strong>: Once you have a <em>complete<\/em> or near-complete sequence, you can derive any SNP array or partial data needed for a given service\/analysis.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Practical Tools<\/strong>: Use standard outputs like FASTA\/BAM\/CRAM\/VCF.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Benefit<\/strong>: Future-proofing. If new markers or methods emerge, you won\u2019t have to re-test.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>3.2 Open Data Formats &amp; Protocols<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Core Format<\/strong>: Perhaps a variant of VCF for storing known variants, plus raw read formats if needed.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Conversion Utilities<\/strong>: Tools that can automatically extract the relevant ~E6 or ~E7 SNPs a consumer service uses\u2014enabling cross-compatibility.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Checksum\/Hashing<\/strong>: Unique digital signatures to confirm authenticity and prevent tampering.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>3.3 Distributed but Federated Databases<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li>Instead of a single monolithic repository (vulnerable to attacks or political control), store mirrored copies or partial shards across multiple continents and organizations.<\/li>\n<li>A <em>federated query system<\/em> that can search or match data across these nodes without centralizing everything in one place.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h3>3.4 Encryption &amp; Access Control<\/h3>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Selective Sharing<\/strong>: Not everyone needs full read-level data on every genome. Layers of encryption and role-based access can handle sensitive remains or partial data.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Zero-Knowledge Proofs<\/strong> (long term): Let individuals check for matches or relationships <em>without<\/em> exposing full raw data to third parties.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Key Insight<\/strong>: The technology to host open, large-scale genomics data is already used in research consortia. The new step is building <em>global governance<\/em> and <em>user-friendly interfaces<\/em> around it.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>4. Ethical &amp; Policy Framework<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Consent &amp; Next-of-Kin<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>For <em>unidentified remains<\/em>, you need a legal process to determine who has the authority to approve DNA testing and data publication.<\/li>\n<li>For <em>historical\/archaeological<\/em> figures, you need ethical guidelines on exhumation and posthumous privacy.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Privacy &amp; Data Sovereignty<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Clarify how long data is stored, who can search it, how potential relatives are contacted.<\/li>\n<li>Build a system that fosters trust, ensuring families that genetic data won\u2019t be misused by outside parties or for profit.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Community Involvement<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Ongoing engagement with genealogical communities, indigenous groups, and local populations who might have cultural or religious concerns about remains testing or data use.<\/li>\n<li>Transparent <em>consultation<\/em> processes to address sensitive remains or historically disputed lineages.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Key Insight<\/strong>: A robust ethical framework is not just \u201cpaper legalese\u201d\u2014it\u2019s the <em>social license<\/em> that allows large-scale DNA data usage without backlash or mistrust.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>5. Practical Rollout Strategy<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Pilot Programs<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Start with a small set of <em>high-profile<\/em> cases (unidentified remains, historically significant figures, or major genealogical lines).<\/li>\n<li>Demonstrate clear, successful matches or confirmations of lineage to show the <em>value proposition<\/em>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Voluntary Participation<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>People who have raw DNA data from consumer tests can choose to <em>opt in<\/em> and upload it in full-sequence or partial format.<\/li>\n<li>Over time, as the system gains credibility, more genealogists and families join\u2014like how volunteer-based GEDmatch grew, but on a larger scale.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Building the Ecosystem<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Provide <strong>open-source tools<\/strong> for matching, triangulation, and relationship inference.<\/li>\n<li>Encourage third-party developers to create user-friendly interfaces, specialized modules for law enforcement, or genealogical analysis apps\u2014like an \u201cApp Store\u201d around the open DNA repository.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Bridge to Commercial Sites<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>The consortium could offer data-conversion services, letting individuals share partial data with a commercial site or vice versa.<\/li>\n<li>Over time, if public sentiment demands it, consumer DNA companies might accept a read-only feed of verified \u201creference profiles\u201d (for historical figures or unidentified remains) to display potential matches <em>without requiring a saliva kit<\/em>.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Key Insight<\/strong>: The rollout must demonstrate <em>success stories<\/em> early on, while steadily building capacity and trust\u2014eventually nudging commercial vendors to integrate or risk irrelevance.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>6. Long-Term Vision (Multi-Century)<\/h2>\n<ol>\n<li><strong>Archival &amp; Redundancy<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Plan for migrations as technology evolves (e.g., from on-premises servers to quantum-based storage in 50 or 100 years).<\/li>\n<li>Maintain <em>immutable logs<\/em> of changes or corrections in genealogical data to preserve historical accuracy.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Global Governance Evolution<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Just as the Internet\u2019s governance shifted over decades, this DNA system might evolve from a founding body into multiple specialized sub-organizations (archivists, ethicists, genealogists).<\/li>\n<li>Periodic summits or conferences (akin to ICANN or UNESCO gatherings) to address new challenges\u2014like advanced editing or re-sequencing technologies that might blur lines of \u201cauthentic\u201d ancestry.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<li><strong>Universal Benefits<\/strong>\n<ul>\n<li>Facilitate scientific breakthroughs in population genetics, disease research, anthropology, while respecting individual and group privacy.<\/li>\n<li>Contribute to solving unknown-identity cases from natural disasters, mass casualty events, or criminal cold cases.<\/li>\n<li>Establish deeper genealogical truths that unify families and communities over centuries.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<blockquote><p><strong>Key Insight<\/strong>: By thinking in centuries, the system is designed to outlast business cycles, ephemeral legal frameworks, and short-lived corporate strategies.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<hr \/>\n<h2>Closing Thoughts<\/h2>\n<p>A <em>workable system<\/em> for global-scale DNA usage <strong>requires<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>Visionary leadership<\/strong> at the consortium level.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Robust funding<\/strong> to ensure continuity.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Open technical standards<\/strong> to remain agile and future-proof.<\/li>\n<li><strong>Broad policy and ethical buy-in<\/strong> so that people trust the system and see it as a public good.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>In short, <em>the technology is there<\/em>\u2014the real challenge is <em>institutional design<\/em>, <em>global cooperation<\/em>, and <em>long-term stewardship<\/em>. This is entirely achievable when the right mix of experts, policymakers, genealogical\/historical societies, and the public <em>align<\/em> on a shared mission beyond commercial interests.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/article>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Global Open DNA Genealogy, Full Genome Reference Individuals, Public Notice CeCe Moore would understand. Richard Collins: I wanted to ask how to add DNA from my 4th great grandmother to Ancestry. It is technically possible &#8211; DNA is DNA, and a one way comparison back to her is half the distance from a living person <br \/><a class=\"read-more-button\" href=\"\/?p=18987\">Read More &raquo;<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[46,24,16],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-18987","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-dna-genealogy","category-global-dna-genealogy","category-internet-best-practices"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/18987","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=18987"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/18987\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":18989,"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/18987\/revisions\/18989"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=18987"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=18987"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=18987"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}